Inside gizzards and Damage Reduction

[Raphir]

So let's say your character is facing one of the most terrifying moments of any adventurers career: you've been swallowed hole by a dragon. Fortunately, however, you remembered to pack along your stuff your trusty dagger, for use in a situation exactly as such. As you start slashing your way out, some questions remain, however, that will decide your fate:

1. Does damage reduction apply to the gizzard of a dragon (or any other creature with DR capable of swallowing hole)??
2. Does the damage you deal to the gizzard count toward killing the dragon?
3. Do you get caught in a dragons breath attack if he uses it while you're in his gizzard?
4. Can the dragon spit you out if he changes his mind about eating you?

Funny thing is that, depending on how you answer these questions, you could find that the most effective place to kill a dragon from might just be his gut...

[Raphir]

I'm a bit surprised a hole month has gone by and there's still no feedback to this question... Does no one have a clear way of discerning how best to approach these questions? No in game experience to that helps answer those questions in the most balanced fashion possible? Anything goes really, I'm curious to know how other groups handle that scenario.

[Jayef]

Dragons are generally supposed to be very difficult to defeat, with very few weak spots. Because of this I'd rule that damage reduction does count inside the gizzard. Although the DR of a dragon is attributed to its scales, a gizzard is also supposed to be able to crush rocks, so I'd give it the same DR for simplicity. That said, if it's so difficult to damage, an adventurer who manages to deal damage inside the gizzard shouldn't feel like they are wasting their time (ok they are trying to escape, but anyways...) so I would make the damage count towards the total health of the dragon.

To figure out the dragon's breath question, you'd probably have to look deep into the draconomicon (which I do not have) and see if they mention how the dragon actually creates the breath, physiologically speaking. It it's from the lungs (my guess), then it bypasses the gizzard and only comes out in the throat. For some other swallowing creatures you are entirely inside the stomach, so it's even less likely that a breath weapon works there, unless it's some kind of "acid regurgitation" breath weapon which would have implications of its own...

As a GM I would allow dragons the ability to regurgitate a person that they have swallowed. It would prevent them from biting that round or something, but the dragon shouldn't be completely screwed if it swallows a barbarian. At some point there would be a gag reflex of some kind anyways.

Basically I would rule against anything that encourages PCs from deliberately jumping into a dragon's mouth, because that makes the game too silly for my style. I want my players to be afraid of dragons damnit!

[Hogarth]

I'm a bit surprised a hole month has gone by and there's still no feedback to this question... Does no one have a clear way of discerning how best to approach these questions? No in game experience to that helps answer those questions in the most balanced fashion possible? Anything goes really, I'm curious to know how other groups handle that scenario.

My suggested answers based on my reading of the rules:
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) No
4) No, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to allow it

P.S. This isn't the world's most active message board these days.

[Raphir]

Well, it does make sense to put the rules in favour of the dragon since they're supposed to be powerful anyways... But that might spell a death sentence to any swallowed character. After all, you've already got the disadvantage of having to use a light weapon, probably a dagger, and unless you just so happened to have a magical dagger with you (unlikely, unless you've found it on a treasure hoard previously. Otherwise you'd probably just spend your money buffing up your real weapon), that might mean that the dagger's d4 damage plus whatever strength bonus you have might not be able to ever make it past the dragons DR, effectively trapping you until either you or the dragon dies.

That's why I figured the two later rules might be a way to counter balance the potentially silly, but otherwise overpowering rule of gizzards with DR. As long as the dragon could provoke considerable damage to you while you're still in the gizzard by hitting you automatically with his breath weapon or can spit you out, or even back into his mouth, where he gets free bite attacks on you, any smartpants that try to kill the dragon from indigestion can learn a fun lesson in the process. Like Jayef put it: rule against anything that encourages PCs from deliberately jumping into a dragon's mouth. Although, if something like that were actually to happen during a gaming session, it'd be probably one of the best remembered moments in the campaign.

Of course, it's still a lot easier to teach the adventurers to fear a dragon if the DR applies inside the gizzard. It might also be fun seeing characters dispense considerable amounts of money on otherwise not-so-useful +1 daggers, for instance. Thanks for the feedback!

[Valkem]

Well I suppose these answers have to be half opinion, but I do have some manuals here to reference for fun.

1. Maybe. I would say yes, unless you're in the mood to be nice. The Draconomicon says the gizzard is lined with bony plates that grind up food, etc. It also says it's charged with elemental energy, something I mention below. If everyone assumes the DR is from the Scales, maybe these plates provide said DR in the gizzard.

2. Yes, (Draconicon) the feat 'snatch and swallow' (not sure how much I can say legally, but I'll give my opinion on what it says)
It appears that any damage a swallowed character deals is take off your hitpoints.
it also appears an escape artist check would allow you to crawl back into their mouth, basically escape the stomach.
it also leads me to beleive that a chart shows damage to cut your way out, but that the muscles close that hole back up, if someone else was to be swallowed, they'd have to do it again.

3. No, But it's your world. Some of these dragons it shows the breath weapon being like poison sacks on a snake, and in the mouth only; however, in the anatomy section it says that the dragons fundamentum charges it's lungs with power for the dragon's breath weapon. If you check the SRD on Snatch feat though..
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#snatch
It states that a snatched creature held in the mouth does not get a relfex save vs. breath weapon.

According to the Draconicon manual a character in the stomach takes bludgeoning damage each round, AND energy damage each round. The type of energy is based on the dragon's breath weapon.

4. Why not. If you don't want to just make it easy, give the dragon itself a Fort. check to cough up the character. If you want to be mean, let him puke up enough acid (stomach juice) to still cause some damage.

According to the Draconicon manual a character in the stomach takes bludgeoning damage each round, AND energy damage each round. The type of energy is based on the dragon's breath weapon.

I assume I haven't gotten any legal feathers ruffled since I haven't listed stats or numbers, just discussed idea's and overall rules.

Now if you take into account the amount of bite damage you take while snatched up in a dragon's mouth, and the fact that you can't dodge a breath weapon, I don't really see jumping into a dragon's mouth on purpose. Who says he has to swallow you before you're dead. The SRD link also reminds me that it's pretty much a free bite while sntached, and that you can drop a creature while you're flying. So again, why swallow, Bite, Fly, Breath, Drop them for falling damage. Kill off one, and let the others realize they don't want to play in the gizzard park afterall.

If you're group is to powerful, or determined to grapple their way inside a dragon, then maybe the DR should count. I don't see anything here that specifically states it, but I don't see anything that doesn't. That being said, when it doesn't specific an exemption, I usually stick to the basics, which would mean the DR stays.

Unless you have nut-ball rule lawyers, I'd just run it as your world, just once you decide, try to stick with it. If they're getting overrun by the dragon, and you're doing the eating for flavor, I'd leave out the DR, so they can escape, but if they start trying to dive into his mouth on purpose, I might remind them by letting someone get chewed a round or two, and breathed on, before being swallowed. You could always restrict str bonuses and such, do to restricted movement. Can you really get all your strength in if you're not able to swing at something, or get your footing?

I think the problem is deciding if you're trying to be nice, or if you're worried your group is going to overrun a dragon, or go on dragon killing sprees.

Then it might be time to find a way to make them captured and naked.

After reviewing this info, it reminds me why we were suppose to be afraid of dragons in campaigns.

Well i've rambled enough. I hope this helps in some form.

(sorry if it seems over rambled, I was getting phone calls [work] and interruptions. I tried to clean it up some)
There are decent examples in the stat blocks of some monsters in the MM also, with more exact numbers and explainations.

[jreyst]

P.S. This isn't the world's most active message board these days.

Well for a Pathfinder SRD (quasi) equivalent to this site, you know I run d20pfsrd.com. I'm trying to get Pathfinder-related conversation moving on the over there so maybe stop on by and say hey

However, for 3.5 related subjects, this is still the creme-de-le-creme of SRD sites.